You think you know, but you don't

From doktorsleepless

DOKTOR SLEEPLESS #9 You think you know, but you don't

Posted by Spiraltwist on October 1, 2008 at 3:37pm

Issue number nine hits the shelves today and tomorrow, location depending.

Warren will probably open a thread on Whitechapel, if he hasn't done so already. Since we are the secret Doktor Sleepless community, a discussion is needed here, which usually runs past what's on that thread. ;) (No snark to WC, but we tend to pick the issue apart in our threads more)

I've read the issue, but I need to re-read before I add my two cents.

What did you think?

Reply by CJ Cleary on October 2, 2008 at 1:47am

It was an interesting way to begin Book 2. If Book 1 was about how the Doktor sees Heavenside, how intimately he knows its history and its flaws, then Book 2 may seek to expand our knowledge of Heavenside from the point of view of an outsider - hell, from our own point of view, even. A blogger from the 'normal' world coming to Heavenside?

The biggest thing that stood out on a single read through, though, was the conversation with Celia - having read 'The Darkening Sky', she seems to have accepted the influence of the Old Ones on the world. "We're working off different rules, here" is how she describes Heavenside - just how much does she see, now?

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 2, 2008 at 4:23pm

just how much does she see, now?

I'm wondering the same thing.

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 9, 2008 at 1:35pm

The biggest thing that stood out on a single read through, though, was the conversation with Celia - having read 'The Darkening Sky'

Both cool and scary.

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 2, 2008 at 4:35pm

Brain dumping - I'm tired so I'm just going to run with it.

Story starts at day 66, and according to the wiki, we left off on day 3. This should be day 69 in Heavenside. The number must have meaning (well, besides a couple that I can think of - and it reminds me of a cover image - which I don't remember right now)

Next: Sarah Berlin - writer/blogger/sucker. With the state that Heavenside seems to have fallen into, no one wants to go there. She must really, truly wish to know the truth, or the money must be excellent (or she needs the money period). She's from NY, and can take care of herself quite nicely. Why am I giddy with anticipation to see her and Nurse match up?

Warren alludes to Dr. Preston Stoker being "Alfred" - but who is Batman? It would be obvious to say Doktor Sleepless, but I am not so sure about that. With a "knife caked in old blood", he appears to have been a busy being in the two + months. Who has he been killing? And why?

The woman wearing the first grey mask seen by Sarah Berlin did NOT have red eyes - they were blue. Impersonator? Maybe the Nurse, told by Doktor Sleepless to watch for the blogger person that was coming to his city? Or a new player in the game?

More later.

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 2, 2008 at 9:17pm

Finishing, sorta, brain dump.

The rest of the world sees the Doktor as a terrorist. We know two planes have fallen out of the sky, but what else has been happening? (No mention if the planes hit anything).

The Darkening Sky appears to ONLY be availible in Heavenside. Why? With other grinder cultures having a resurgence, why wouldn't the Doktor ship the book to them? The more books, the more keys are out there...the more eyes are open to the "truth". Is whatever will happen must be based in Heavenside? (He said he "had to start somewhere, why not here?", and the house has it's own "special" properties.)

As it's been noted on Whitechapel, they must be somewhere on the eastcoast - catch the train from New York and riding for hours across country isn't something that I see Sarah doing...though the planes falling are a good deterrent. Maybe the map in the War Room was a real representation of the area?

And the brain's empty now. Well, the usual emptiness. :)

Reply by William Howard on October 3, 2008 at 3:52pm

I thought it was Dr. Albert Cannon that was "Alfred" not Preston Stoker. (Sorry, just occurred to me as first thing).

Wouldn't Doktor Sleepless be the obvious person? He's the boy that was raised by the legal guardian butler (Well, bank servant).

Wish I'd read this before I went to the wiki and made the bunch of edits I just finished tagging at anyway. I agree about the Nurse now that I read your theory on that.

My own personal brain dump:

A LOT of people seemed to have no-face in issue 9, much more than I remember noticing in other issues. Sometimes it was really starkly done too, the girl outside Catastrophe Books in a bikini top has no face, but is looking almost directly at the subjective viewer point.

Also they're really ramping up the ammount of sidewalk violence we see from pay-cops vs Grinders.

Also also, I see 2 repetitions of the number 75 on peoples jumpers in this comic, and a prominent number 2 on a guys jumper. Does 75 hold some significance to anyone?

Reply by Metacelsus on October 4, 2008 at 9:17am

Yeah I was pretty sure that was Albert too. I wonder if the reference to him as being Alfred is more about needing someone for your new character to beat up to show they can handle themselves. As in a badguy in batman would beat up/kidnap Alfred so we can see they're a bad ass. Otherwise you only ever see the villains fight batman and since they're always going to lose in that situation they wouldn't be cool or scary.

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 9, 2008 at 1:34pm

Yeah, my brain was combining two things at once. I did mean Dr. Albert Cannon.

Happens when I am tired.

I noticed the 75 trend, maybe it will be important later. As for the facelessness, there might be something to that....

Reply by mith on November 3, 2008 at 8:19pm

There are 25 teeth on the outside of each gear in the Grinder symbol, times three gears gives 75 teeth.

Reply by Spiraltwist on November 4, 2008 at 12:33am

Do I want to know why you counted all the teeth?

Nice catch!

Reply by John Lenin on October 4, 2008 at 5:22am

I'll start with my first impressions i put on the WC thread, but I definitely plan on digging in a lot more on this thread soon.

I'm loving the new chapter. Really enjoying the Sarah Berlin character. Her cut-through-the-bullshit New York attitude should be interesting when she finally meets the Doktor. Also I can't wait for her blog to go online.

I really like the skipping ahead 66 days thing. Usually I hate it when they do it in between TV seasons, probably because it usually just seems like a convenient way to jump from one story arc to the next without being able to use the actors who didn't sign on for the new season. This is totally different. Following Sarah Berlin as she tries to discover how and why the situation evolved in Heavenside and what it is going to lead to makes the story more intriguing. I guess I feel like there's so much depth to the Doktor Sleepless universe / back story/ backmatter I can't wait for her to wade through it. Brilliant!

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 9, 2008 at 1:32pm

Also I can't wait for her blog to go online.

My hypothesis on this is that as each issue comes out, so will some pages to her blog.

Ariana's been complaining about being awfully busy lately (though I wouldn't put it past Ellis to write the blog himself, or have someone on the side doing it for him), so maybe that's what she's been working on. The buy date on the domain isn't that old.

Reply by Nathaniel F. Robinson on October 6, 2008 at 5:14am

After reading this issue - yes, it's all great, easily the best comic being released today - I can't help but wonder at the significance at the names of the characters.

Sarah Berlin, for one. Berlin itself is obviously the name of the capital of Germany, which was devastated by World War Two, and then divvied up and walled by the winners of that war. Could this be a metaphor for Berlin's mental state, or what it's going to become? (I also noticed that she had blue hair and blond eyes; I'm hesitatant to believe that Ellis would include Nazi references into DS, but isn't that the supposed appearance of the 'pure-blooded' Aryan race?

'Sarah', as far as I can tell from a quick Google search, springs from the Hebrew language and translates to 'princess'. Biblically, she was married to Abraham, and they had many adventures together. 'Sahara' is also named after her.

What do you guys think?

EDIT for grammar.

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 9, 2008 at 1:29pm

I also noticed that she had blue hair and blond eyes; I'm hesitatant to believe that Ellis would include Nazi references into DS, but isn't that the supposed appearance of the 'pure-blooded' Aryan race?

Yes, and not a reference to Nazis directly. What if she gets her own grinds, tats and clatter while she is in Heavenside (I cross my fingers she ditches the crappy pink, too)? Moving from less of a Princess to the common, everyday person.

I like the divided mind metaphor.

Reply by Jared on October 9, 2008 at 4:59am

One thing I noticed about Sarah that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet:

Sarah, from her first appearence, is a fairly respected columnist with a no bullshit attitude and a need to get to the truth in things. Is it just me, or does this remind anyone of Spider Jeusalem? Considering what Warren has said before on how Doktor is the antithesis of Transmetropolitan and I have to imagine that this was intentional. I'm guessing that, after meeting with the Doktor, she and Sing will actually mobilize to try to stop the Doktor. I know it's probably too far ahead to make such a conclusion--but hey, what the hell?

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 9, 2008 at 1:26pm

Yes, she does. And much better looking too. :)

I'm divided her on getting together and mobilizing with Sing. As a reporter/blogger entity, she should stay objective and stay out of it; this is doubtful though. I can see her helping Sing, and I can also see her wanting to get the fuck out of there, too.

Maybe the Darkening Sky will change her mind?

Reply by Metacelsus on October 12, 2008 at 12:48pm

she should stay objective and stay out of it; this is doubtful though.

If we're making a full Spider Jerusalem comparison though getting in the middle of things is well within writ of good old fashioned gonzo journalism.

Reply by Jared on October 13, 2008 at 3:52am

This. And even if she doesn't directly get involved, she'd probably at least write about it, and a published world-wide story of the Doktor's plan to destroy the world would make her a target for both Sleepless supporters who want to kill her and by people in high standing who don't want to see what they probably consider a Grinder fuckwad try to blow up the world. So, even if she tries staying out of it, she'd probably get involved somehow.

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 14, 2008 at 4:31am

Given her no-nonsense attitude, I just don't see her NOT staying involved.

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 14, 2008 at 4:31am

Good point

Reply by BattleGar Stalactica on October 9, 2008 at 7:03pm

Just on the whole Batman thing I think it is fair to say that DS is the obvious choice. At the very least it provides an interesting way to look at the book. I mean, check this out: Young boy orphaned, inherets wealth,and guardian (Alfred) leaves to train (read:get fucked up with ...ahem...Fidel Castro), returns with the knowhow and funds to carry out vengeance against those who killed his parents and,crucially, creates a larger than life, mythic persona, to achieve this. This to me is cool as it suggests that the 'superhero' identity thing is no longer to protect famile etc. but to create a particular aesthetic facade that can change things better than John Reinhardt ever could...any thoughts?

As for #9, loved the Sarah Berlin character and her inclusion as a journo/blog type brings warm, fuzzy, Transmet feelings to my heart and parts beyond...though did anyone else find the tower explosion and the mention of two passenger airline crashes a tad disquitening in their overt suggestion of 9/11 and positing DS as a terrorist?

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 9, 2008 at 8:06pm

...though did anyone else find the tower explosion and the mention of two passenger airline crashes a tad disquieting in their overt suggestion of 9/11 and positing DS as a terrorist?

Not disquieting, but a way to make it obvious that the rest of the world sees him a terrorist. Although it hasn't been explained exactly how/why the two planes went down, the explosion on one floor of the tower was meant to drive the point home, I think.

Reply by Metacelsus on October 12, 2008 at 12:45pm

I'm not a USasian but I didn't even make the 9/11 connection. I assumed the plane crashes were a sign of the cost-cutting corporate society they're living in rather than something caused by DS. I got the impression that he is very specifically targeting the pay-cops.

Reply by Jared on October 13, 2008 at 4:03am

"Just on the whole Batman thing I think it is fair to say that DS is the obvious choice."

The only potential problem I can see with this is that doesn't the Nurse already fill this role to an extent?

"...though did anyone else find the tower explosion and the mention of two passenger airline crashes a tad disquitening in their overt suggestion of 9/11 and positing DS as a terrorist?"

Huh--I'm, as Meta said best, a USian, and I didn't explicitly think of the 9/11 connection until you mentioned it. I can see it--that, plus Sarah mentioned that the outside world thinks him a terrorist and the whole "FOX News" part of Sarah's blog makes me think that it is Warren's intention, and that it's to help establish the Doktor's reputation outside of Heavenside which would be solidified later on.

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 14, 2008 at 4:30am

The only potential problem I can see with this is that doesn't the Nurse already fill this role to an extent?

Yes, my thoughts. But another thing that bothers me - who was driving the vehicle they left in when leaving the club, after the Doktors' first seen episode by us? (nurse tells someone to bring the car around, and it's not a cab they get into).

Reply by Metacelsus on October 14, 2008 at 9:29am

I've been wondering this one myself. On the one hand, John Reinhardt was rich, I'm sure he had drivers and such and so the driver doesn't need to be anyone special. On the other hand if DS isn't Reinhardt but is someone or something else that's been wound up and set loose maybe the people who did the winding are paying Nurse to hang around to keep an eye on him as much as to watch his back, maybe this breakdown is fake-DS's 'programming' or whatever you want to call it breaking down which is why she's seen it before.

Reply by 444 on October 20, 2008 at 10:46am

...if DS isn't Reinhardt but is someone or something else that's been wound up and set loose maybe the people who did the winding are paying Nurse to hang around to keep an eye on him as much as to watch his back...

Although, the Dok claims he's paying Nurse good money to watch his back (can't recall which issue off hand). Granted, if merely 'programmed,' then the Dok could have all sorts of false thoughts, conceptions, and ideas about what's what.

Reply by William Howard on October 14, 2008 at 12:25pm

Err.. FOX News? Sarah's Blog? Where did I miss this? What are you referring to?

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 14, 2008 at 3:43pm

I don't understand what you are asking.

Reply by William Howard on October 19, 2008 at 8:12am

Jared says: Huh--I'm, as Meta said best, a USian, and I didn't explicitly think of the 9/11 connection until you mentioned it. I can see it--that, plus Sarah mentioned that the outside world thinks him a terrorist and the whole "FOX News" part of Sarah's blog makes me think that it is Warren's intention, and that it's to help establish the Doktor's reputation outside of Heavenside which would be solidified later on.

Is there a blog for Sarah that I've missed entirely? Same goes for mentions of fox news before the guy brought it up. Also, I have no idea why this jumped out of where I wanted it in the comment architecture.

The guy mentioned FOX News and Sarah having a blog, neither of which things match to -any- continuities in my mind? Do they match for you?

I hadn't been sleeping enough when I commented, so sorry for the lack of answerability on the original comment. Please forgive.

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 19, 2008 at 2:21pm

Is there a blog for Sarah that I've missed entirely?

Yes. sarahberlin.net - she mentions it; currently, it leads back to doktorsleepless.com.

I'm keeping an eye on the space, though (why buy it not use it?)

Reply by 444 on October 20, 2008 at 10:41am

"Just on the whole Batman thing I think it is fair to say that DS is the obvious choice."

The only potential problem I can see with this is that doesn't the Nurse already fill this role to an extent?

Sorta', but don't she seem more to fit the Robin slot as sidekick?

Of course, I'm pretty sure, and unlike Robin to Batman, Nurse could kick the Dok's ass in a heartbeat!

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 14, 2008 at 4:28am

I got the impression that he is very specifically targeting the pay-cops.

He goes off on a rant about them in the one of the earlier issues.

He doesn't like them at all.

Reply by KloKworK on October 10, 2008 at 6:38pm

wow! I dont sign on for a few days and I come into some really interesting topics. I love the idea of Sarah vs. The Nurse! I hope the fight involves jello! No but really the possibility of that clash in personalities just gives more weight to the idea of Sarah and Sing teaming up. Even if it isnt to go directly against DS. I wonder... why hasnt there been any real stories on grinders and life in Hevanside? Alot of those grinders are intelegent and expressive. I find it weird that one of their own didnt try to put their 2cents in. Unless DS does not want the info to leak! If that is the case I think that Sarahand Sing might team up to write a blog/story and try to get it out,... which creates conflict between the nurse and Sarah as well as DS and Sing. Thoughts?

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 14, 2008 at 4:27am

Unless DS does not want the info to leak!

Maybe he as a very specific image that he wants to be projected on the world, concerning the grinders?

Also, only clatter is there in Heavenside? Or Sarah not hers turned on?

William Howard Permalink Reply by William Howard on October 14, 2008 at 12:23pm

Or elsewhere the community in New York City isn't so tight knit that people find out in inside of 2 minutes what's going on via clatter?

Though that explanation makes no sense, I'd expect that clatter would storm news through places. So I'll side with clatter must be only in Heavenside. Else you'd not be taken off-balance by such an advance.

But then, Heavenside is really some city of the future by comparison to the rest of America, so the washed out death of America feel espoused by Tag and Dem wouldn't fit at all.

Other note: She doesn't seem to be a clatter user at all, she calls the cops with a physical phone, which doesn't fit to the behaviour of any of the clatter users we've seen at all. Still, this provokes for me even more of the dichotomy between Heavenside as apparently a city of the future and Heavenside as the sinkhole of America.

Reply by Metacelsus on October 14, 2008 at 2:00pm

Yeah I think Clatter is a grinder thing and therefore a Heavenside thing. That said, the Clatter piggybacks on commercial IM feeds right? So there must be an equivalent that most non-grinders use.

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 14, 2008 at 3:54pm

Heavenside as apparently a city of the future and Heavenside as the sinkhole of America.

Why can't it be both?

Reply by William Howard on October 19, 2008 at 8:14am

I don't know, maybe it IS both, but I'd have thought the parts of America that weren't a gaping sink-hole would have grabbed at the parts of Heavenside that spoke of hopeful futures.

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 19, 2008 at 2:22pm

That's what I think, unless the tech wasn't allowed to be filtered out.

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 14, 2008 at 3:52pm

Forgive the terrible grammar above - that is how my brain runs, and I was too tired to translate properly.

Should have said:

Also, is clatter only available in Heavenside? Or does Sarah not have hers turned on?

Reply by Science Fiction Fox on October 13, 2008 at 8:01pm

I think, as already well stated, that it'll offer insight onto Heavenside and the grinder culture, and also some info on Doctor Cannon, who looking back now, Seemed to be following the Blogger from when she entered human gears. So I'm assuming He knows something about Sarah.

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 14, 2008 at 4:26am

I don't think it's any kind of secret to the powers-that-be, that she's there in Heavenside.

Reply by Mark Crabtree on October 16, 2008 at 11:16am

Got the issue yesterday. Superb.

First off, I'd say it's the best looking issue so far, I don't know if Warren's been making suggestions or if Ivan has just been practising, but either way it looks stunning.

A point that I'm surprised no-one else has picked up on, could Sarah Berlin have been part of imminent.sea gang, possibly Irene Adler, but we still have a few unkowns to pick from. A) She's a blogger B) she shows an interest in cutting edge culture C) If Max Cale had uses, maybe the rest of the team were chosen for a reason and her presence in Heavenside is not an accident D) more tenuous, perhaps, but the name vaguely reminds me of Susannah Breslin a sex-blogging associate of Warren's.

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 16, 2008 at 3:46pm

Oh - nice catch the on the name correlation.

I didn't think she would be part of it immanent.sea because she seems so surprised by things in Heavenside. I'd expect anyone associated with the blog to be more...aware? Can't quite get a word for it.

Then again, it wouldn't be the first curve ball warren has thrown at us. :)

Reply by Mark Crabtree on October 17, 2008 at 1:56pm

Not necessarily, we know Max Cale has visited Heavenside and although we know "Proffessor Zero" was based there that was annonymous and I don't recall anything specifically tying the site there. Heck, it was technically based in Sealand. And had a worldwide audience.

So Sarah may not have been there before, even so she seems fairly comfortable with grinder culture. If she'd used a psuedonym she could have been based absolutely anywhere. Possibly.

Metacelsus Permalink Reply by Metacelsus on October 18, 2008 at 2:00pm

My initial instinct is that she seems too young to have been part of imminent.sea, it would also mean she should know a lot more about heavenside and so on than she's letting on (or maybe not, they never knew professor zero's real identity did they?).

Reply by Andrew on October 21, 2008 at 10:06pm

1. 9 was good. A bit early to ever guess where it's going, but I like the new girl (whose name slips my mind).

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 22, 2008 at 2:42am

Her name is Sarah Berlin.

Reply by Andrew on October 22, 2008 at 2:45am

Did #9 come out before or after Sarah Palin, because phonetically the names are darn similar.

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 22, 2008 at 2:50am

I'd say before, as Mr. Ellis had this series planned out way before she was announced. He had to adjust the story when Anonymous started doing the mask thing, too.

Reply by Andrew on October 22, 2008 at 2:52am

Ah, ok.

Reply by Spiraltwist on October 22, 2008 at 2:58am

N/p.

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