Working toward a group-mind?

From doktorsleepless

Working toward a group-mind?

Posted by eschatonic.water on June 20, 2008 at 2:40am

Speculation:

Clatter & Shriekyware: First steps toward a group-mind? Shared communication linked with shared sensations. We've seen a Grinder with telepathic abilities; combine that grind with these two bits of tech, add a dose of --

Ayahuasca: The drug peddled by Don Bastardo when John Reinhart found him in the Amazon, which Johhny believed granted users the ability to "connect somehow with other minds".

Consider Dok's "Zombie Maker": Dok all but says he plans at some point to take control of the tags of everyone in Heavenside.

"...[Y]ou never know when you might need a lot of zombie tags to do what you tell them." Given that he's already proven he can create an independent IM network with a piggy-backed haptic interface, and given the existence of telepathic hardware, it doesn't seem out of the question that the Dok could grab everyone's tags, reprogram them accordingly, and create a city-sized group-mind - all potentially under his direction.

(Some of the Grinders are already acting on what they believe Doktor Sleepless is telling them to do...)

"Changing the world is as easy, and as hard, as just changing the way everyone thinks about their world. The really tough thing is figuring out that no-one really gives a shit."

Maybe Dok's figured a way around that last problem.

Reply by Ryan Jarrell on June 20, 2008 at 6:21pm

Let me start out by saying that I really like this idea, and it really shows the dedication you guys have been giving this book. My only problem with this is that it seems like DS's whole message is one of originality. He's based one of his new lives on the premise that by creating yourself you can seperate yourself from the rest of the crowd. Then again, I tend to lean towards the idea that the Doktor is the ultimate unreliable narrator. In conclusion, I'll feel like an asshole if i'm wrong, and I have no idea what to think.

Spiraltwist on June 20, 2008 at 9:53pm

My only problem with this is that it seems like DS's whole message is one of originality.

True. It seems that the Grinders are the only ones who seem to be original, but they are not organized well and have no focus.

Then again, I tend to lean towards the idea that the Doktor is the ultimate unreliable narrator. In conclusion, I'll feel like an asshole if i'm wrong, and I have no idea what to think.

He could be very unreliable source - we just don't know at this point. As for the whole asshole thing, don't sweat it - there are so many theories floating around right now, sometimes up will be down and vice versa. People are going to be wrong, but that's ok. Being wrong doesn't make you an asshole. That's just silly.

At least you are thinking, even if you "have no idea what to think."

Ellis makes us question things.

Reply by Mark Crabtree on June 21, 2008 at 4:52pm

It seems that the Grinders are the only ones who seem to be original

Which is why they all wear leather, show lots of skin and have sprawling tattoos.

Sure, they're different from the masses, but it doesn't seem to be a wildly individual sub-kulture.

That said, they do seem to be trying and perhaps under the good Doktors guidance...

Reply by 444 on June 23, 2008 at 11:14am

Which is why they all wear leather, show lots of skin and have sprawling tattoos.

Lol--Mr. Crabtree tellin' it like it is!

Reply by Ian 'Cat' Vincent on June 23, 2008 at 3:41pm

"Yes - we're all individuals!"

"I'm not..."

Reply by 444 on June 23, 2008 at 11:39am

I second Spiraltwist: no reason to feel like anything if yer wrong. I mean, shit, there's so many possibilities with all the loose threads that each of us is much more likely to be wrong than right--only Ellis knows, after all, it's his tale--and, well, who knows if he even really knows, heh.

Anyway, what I get to thinking is that, if I'm thinking yer talking about one of The Good Doktor's broadcasts, was it "originality" he was speaking of or authenticity? Because I think it's a bit of a difference between the two.

Like Mr. Crabtree points out, being part of a subculture doesn't necessarily make the individual original: scenes/subcultures

/hell, even cultures, tend to have their own dress codes, ideologies, mannerisms and so on. If we're looking at the microcosm--the individual--then the individual can't help but be unoriginal in the sense that s/he is always in relation to some set of norms/ideas/standards/etc..

So the question might be more of authenticity: is the individual being authentic to him/her self? I mean, every fuckin' scene that I've ever seen has its sociopolitical structure: top-dogs and bottom dogs, those that are 'real' to the subculture and those that will be called 'fakes' or 'poseurs' for example. And that, perhaps, is a question of authenticity. Is an individual acting of his/her true self or acting otherwise?

But there's the rub, perhaps, because what might it be to be authentic? Is authenticity not also a measure relative to some perceived standard?

And as far as the Dok goes, well shit, if he can manipulate folks into doing his bidding while making them believe that they are being authentic to themselves, well, there's no better way to convince people of things than to make them feel like they are being really real to themselves, like they are the ones making the choices.

Reply by Ian 'Cat' Vincent on June 23, 2008 at 3:44pm

Excellent rant there, 444!

Interesting to consider the point of Dok's insistence on the value of authenticity to oneself through the medium of changing your identity - and using that as a medium of control. Is he actually setting himself up as a Grinder Cult leader? Possibly - but it seems an obvious ploy and I suspect there's a deeper, subtler game going on.

Reply by eschatonic.water on June 24, 2008 at 12:47am

This seems a good moment to raise a point I've been pondering. (Apologies if this has been noted elsewhere; I still haven't slogged through all of the archived discussions.) To date, we have seen Doktor Sleepless commit only one overt, direct, person-to-person action since returning to Heavenside (unless you count nicking DJ Amun's Pronoia supply): his resurrection of the Grinder, Jaime.

First off, I'm sure the Grinders, of all people, know something as simple as how to difibrillate someone in cardiac arrest. (Even today we have personal emergency defibrillators that are so user-friendly, anyone can use them; the machines themselves determine whether the shock is needed, and the correct moment to deliver it.) And later, Jaime talks about how the Dok "fixed his grind" just by touching him, so it seems like Dok did a bit more than just run some juice through the dead Grinder. Instant re-programming/re-wiring/re-boot?

In any case, on the surface, the "Science Jesus Event" seems altruistic and selfless. But it serves to bolster the Dok's "character," and ingratiates him with the current flock of Grinders - many of whom may not even know or remember who John Reinhart was. And as we've seen, Jaime is now a stalwart supporter of Doktor Sleepless, and seems to be one of the driving forces in the "lets go fuck shit up" contingent - because obviously, that's what Doktor Sleepless wants them to do.

So, a seemingly altruistic act may well be a(n improvised, spontaneous, opportunistic) step toward the Dok's ultimate goal.

Reply by 444 on June 24, 2008 at 8:44am

I don't think anything the Dok does is altruistic. If it's a story about "a new kind of villain," and Doktor Sleepless is that villain, then I'd reckon altruistic motivations are far from his actions.

Yer post got me thinking though, pretty good timing on Jamie's malfunctioning grind and Herr Science Jesus' arrival at Shank's. If our Good Doktor can control people's tags (at close range, so he claims, without the Zombie making device), and since much of this Grinder technology is his invention, well hell, maybe the Dok caused the kid's heart to stop in the first place.

Reply by Spiraltwist on July 5, 2008 at 8:20pm

If our Good Doktor can control people's tags (at close range, so he claims, without the Zombie making device), and since much of this Grinder technology is his invention, well hell, maybe the Dok caused the kid's heart to stop in the first place.

Only problem I see with this is the fact that Jaime was already out before they walked in the door - a minute or so. I really don't think he did that, unless he'd already staked the place out earlier and fixed it so it would happen just as the hack began to work on Jaime.

444 Permalink Reply by 444 on June 24, 2008 at 9:07am

Excellent rant there, 444!

Heh, thanks Ian! I try to entertain...

It seems to me Herr Doktor has already set himself up as a "Grinder Cult leader." I mean, he preaches to 'em over the radio, they listen to--and more importantly, accept--his messages of dissatisfaction and revolt, and now they act (seemingly) in tandem with Sleepless' malevolent agenda. I'd say the Dok is leadin' 'em exactly where he wants.

Now will Herr Doktor's leadership of these people result in self-realization/actualization/authenticity for the individuals involved or is it simply a violent path of self-destruction in order to immanentize the eschaton?

Reply by Mike Hills on June 24, 2008 at 10:49am

Seems pretty clear to me that the Doktor is establishing himself as a cult leader.

Something that just occurred to me. His radio broadcasts are being streamed on the web. Which means anyone world wide can tune in. Will we soon be seeing the spread of Grinder culture world-wide?

Reply by Spiraltwist on June 20, 2008 at 9:46pm

"Changing the world is as easy, and as hard, as just changing the way everyone thinks about their world. The really tough thing is figuring out that no-one really gives a shit."

Taking control of people's tags could do this - but they would then be doing what the Doktor said to do. Unless taking control, and giving it back to them, gives them the shock to wake the fuck up, and then give a shit about changing the world.

Fear is an excellent motivator.

Reply by eschatonic.water on June 21, 2008 at 6:49am

This is all true - if we accept that Dok's ultimate agenda actually is altruistic. Or if, indeed, he really cares about changing the world. I'm not sure either is a safe assumption, just yet.

Reply by 444 on June 23, 2008 at 11:52am

I agree. To me it seems that all we got to go on so far is that Herr Dok wants to bring down the current societal structure. We have seen nothing, imo, of his own plans for a future.

He's sellin' a line of dissatisfaction: "where's my jet pack?" "Is this the future you were promised?"

Reply by eschatonic.water on June 23, 2008 at 2:43pm

And the Doktor isn't, so far as I can tell, trying to sell anyone on any particular kind of future; he's simply preaching that this one is broken. His message (or one of them) is for people to break free of the patterns and limits of the lives they've been conned into living, and create the future that they want for themselves.

Which is a wonderful, attractive idea on an individual, personal level. But if everyone were to simultaneously "break free" of the societal structure, there'd be no society or culture, only chaos.

And who knows? Maybe that's what Dok's after...

Reply by eschatonic.water on June 21, 2008 at 6:56am

Revision:

Upon reflection, I may have reached an erroneous conclusion (though I stand by the group-mind-as-goal theory). I had assumed (usually a mistake) that because he wore a t-shirt with Dok's Grinder symbol on it, the telepath in Issue #3 was, in fact, a Grinder. And maybe he was - but maybe not. I also assumed that his telepathic ability derived from his grinds - but upon re-reading the interaction between him and Dr. Cannon, I'm re-thinking that. When Cannon gives him the money, the unnamed telepath replies, "Worth whatever they put in the water." He goes on to say, "I was a librarian. Three years ago? Maybe three weeks ago, who knows..." Time seems to have become meaningless for him. And he seems to believe that his abilities derive from something in the water.

Ayahuasca, perhaps? Introduced into the Heavenside water supply at some point in the past three years? Dok's had this plan in mind and motion a long time...

Reply by Mike Hills on June 21, 2008 at 7:43am

And he seems to believe that his abilities derive from something in the water.

Ayahuasca, perhaps? Introduced into the Heavenside water supply at some point in the past three years? Dok's had this plan in mind and motion a long time...

another very good point.. could this mean the whole town is trippin'?

hmm. yet another theory to explain teh Angel Construct event.

some sort of guided mass hallucination? perhaps with the Dok's radio broadcasts as a trigger?

Reply by eschatonic.water on June 21, 2008 at 7:50am

See my soon-to-be-posted discussion on "Envisioning Angels".

Reply by Jared on June 21, 2008 at 8:01am

Possible. The only problem I can think with that is that I'm pretty sure that people have seen the Angels when he hasn't broadcasted. If someone can post evidence suggesting otherwise I'll concede.

Reply by Ian 'Cat' Vincent on June 23, 2008 at 4:00pm

If the town is a'trippin', it's almost certainly not ayahuasca as such.

Firstly, the stuff tastes bloody awful. It is quite literally the most bitter and foul thing I have ever had in my mouth. You'd notice this in your water supply!

Also, aya' is basically a plant-based cocktail of dimethyltryptamine (DMT, an endogenous neuropeptide - i.e. naturally occurring chemical which induces brain change) plus a monoamine oxydase inhibitor (MAOI) which makes the brain-change effect last longer. There are much cleaner ways to do this industrially.

(Ironically, the actual entheogen in the mix is not the ayahuasca plant - that's the source of the MAOI! The DMT comes from the other ingredients, which vary from culture to culture. More on this here.)

(Disclaimer - my wife has trained in Peru for a long time in aya'-based healing techniques and drinks weekly. I've done it twice. Powerful stuff in many ways, not least on the digestive tract. Caveat Emptor!)

Also, entheogens tend to break down rapidly in water, especially when exposed to sunlight - which is why the 'acid-in-the-water' urban legend remained just that. If the water is doped, it's not likely to be anything we currently know about.

But the mass-hallucination-mediated-by-radio idea - now that's got some prospects! Possibly through Clatter, or maybe the water is laced with nanotech tags...

Reply by Jared on June 21, 2008 at 7:49am

"My only problem with this is that it seems like DS's whole message is one of originality."

Here's a theory:

What if the zombie tags aren't so much for the Grinders, but for everyone else? It seems as though in this future everyone has some sort of tag inside them, perhaps the Doktor hijacks their tags and controls the Normals?

It seems to me that the Grinders would be more likely to help the Doktor, considering he's one of them and have the same ideas. If anyone is going to stop them, it's going to be everyone but the Grinders.

Reply by Spiraltwist on June 21, 2008 at 3:36pm

What if the zombie tags aren't so much for the Grinders, but for everyone else?

That's what I think. And how convenient the Grinders have a mask (that even looks like the good Doktor), that blocks the tags signals? He could turn everyone else into zombies, except for those wearing the masks.

444 Permalink Reply by 444 on June 23, 2008 at 12:05pm

But a bunch of people running around in identical masks doing Herr Dok's will, well shit, aren't they kinda' of zombies too?

Reply by Ian 'Cat' Vincent on June 23, 2008 at 12:51pm

Indeed so!

Of course there's nothing stopping the masks having different zombie settings...

Reply by Spiraltwist on July 5, 2008 at 8:25pm

Yeah, they would be in a way....

Reflecting on this, I don't think I should be thinking in terms of "literal zombies" concerning the tags. Rather than blindly following a direct order, perhaps he can influence decisions a little more subtlety? We really need a demonstration of this "zombie tags" to see the full extent of their effect. What happens if someone fights the influence? Can they even fight the influence?

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