Let's Talk About H...

From doktorsleepless

Let's Talk About H...

Posted by 444 on April 2, 2008 at 9:02am

No, not smack, I mean the H-plates in the Doktor Sleepless rag.

Over at the wiki, in the discussion on the H-plates, a person by the name Adrammalech writes:

What's got me thinking is that DS says that Stoker and the Mayor "aren't cleared" to access the plates. So...are these plates the Doktor's idea, or have they been around for a long time? If the Dok didn't come up with them, who did, and to what end?

And I reckon those are mighty fine questions. To elaborate on the first: if they've been around for a long time, then how did the Dok gain (seemingly singular) control over 'em? And if they were his idea and installed by him, then how did he make that happen without city big-wig types catchin' on or gettin' pissed or simply stopping him altogether?

Seems ole Ellis' got a bit o' explaining ta do...

One thing that's got my brain a' itchin' is when the Dok says about the St. Teresa's Eyes virus, opened the door for it, let's say." Well, can we take this literally to mean that the virus was waiting behind some H-plate referencing door? Like maybe that mechangel thing (or things?) are stored in some of those H-plate locations, and maybe they've got something to do with the virus? I mean, Celia does see the thing in tandem with her contracting this weird affliction.

What other sorts of MAD SCIENCE might be waiting in these H-Plate locations?

Reply by Mike Hills on April 2, 2008 at 12:57pm

exactly why i'll be beating down the door to my LCS when #6 ships..

whatever's in there freaked the Nurse out.. so it's gotta be good!

Reply by 444 on April 2, 2008 at 1:59pm

I gotta' say, I'm intrigued by the cover of Issue06. Could that be some sort of 'vaccination'? Or maybe the Doktor is retrieving something--perhaps from a corpse, as the subtitle might imply?

Can't wait to see what Nurse has laid eyes upon!

Reply by 444 on April 10, 2008 at 11:50am

Ah, now that I have had #6 in my hands, I've seen that the Doktor is holding a tattoo gun, and seems to be tattooing the grinder symbol on some woman's eyeball. It took my friend at work, a tattoo artist currently between shops, to point that out to me.

Apparently, according to him, that actually happens. A google search seems to confirm his story.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do that, heh.

Reply by Spiraltwist on April 10, 2008 at 3:02pm

This is pretty too.

Reply by 444 on April 10, 2008 at 10:27pm

Yeah, I wouldn't do that either.

Reply by Spiraltwist on April 11, 2008 at 5:00pm

Wuss. ;)

444 Permalink Reply by 444 on April 12, 2008 at 7:44am

What?! Why I oughta'...

no, not today, maybe next Tuesday.

 :D

Reply by Spiraltwist on April 3, 2008 at 12:29am

If they've been around for a long time, then how did the Dok gain (seemingly singular) control over 'em?

Perhaps from his learnings in the Amazon. He said his "mind wasn't big enough", and if he came back to town with a new ability or two, perhaps this gave him the keys to open up/access the plates. People, as in the general masses, will accept a reasonable explanation readily than be willing to believe in something fantastic. They don't know enough, or care enough to question why the the plates are there in the first place.

As for the St. Teresa's eyes, that's a good question. Being the Doktor was the computer guru (as show by former colleagues being unable to open his files), there's not telling what kind of setup he has in Heavenside. He has shown he can shut the entire city down with the push of a button. Dropping a virus into the system should be just as easy, with his knowledge.

I'd like to know if the virus is picking people on purpose or randomly.

Reply by Mike Hills on April 3, 2008 at 1:13am

He said his "mind wasn't big enough"...

the more i re-read the issues, the more I come to think of the Doktor as a very unreliable narrator.. i don't think we can necessarily take his words for being the literal truth

also, i'm starting to wonder if the Doktor is a flesh-bot.. clearly it was able to deliver a blood sample; which for me means it can't be a Tulpa. i'm liking the idea that there are multiple instantiations of John Reinhardt wandering around, each created with very different technology.

which, means his Amazon story is just a cover for being a uber-robot, packed with all sorts of gear.. hence the 'important junk is his head'..

this, would also explain the Science Jesus event

Reply by 444 on April 3, 2008 at 9:07am

i don't think we can necessarily take his words for being the literal truth

Oh I agree!

Yeah, I think the tulpa thing is a metaphor for something else. But Bladerunner style replicants, eh? Maybe...

I'm tending towards overlapping multiple identities of some sort: kinda' like several possible paths John could have taken have been taken altogether in this world that the comic is (currently) set in. But by what means I'm not yet sure...

Maybe it's my own filters (and blinders), but I'm getting a "technoshaman" sort of vibe from the Doktor--like "mentalism" and material technologies are at work here.

Reply by Spiraltwist on April 4, 2008 at 5:25am

I'm starting to wonder if the Doktor is a flesh-bot.. clearly it was able to deliver a blood sample; which for me means it can't be a Tulpa.

I don't know about that. How real can a Tulpa get? Surely, if the tulpa was based on the original genius Reinhardt, the tulpa would find a way to physically appear human?

Reply by 444 on April 3, 2008 at 8:45am

He said his "mind wasn't big enough", and if he came back to town with a new ability or two, perhaps this gave him the keys to open up/access the plates.

Hmm, like they coulda' been there before John/Doktor Sleepless, but like a puzzle that he had to figure out how to solve to gain access to them? So yeah, maybe it's a mental thing, but it reads more like a technology thing to me. Mental frequencies aided by technology, maybe--tricks learned from the shaman and further empowered through tech?

Ah, there's all sorts of angles early in this story, ain't there?

I'll tell ya' what though, unless John is totally dead--or totally bat-shit crazy--and this is some dream (so to speak), I'll be annoyed if the Doktor has totally created and organized every tricky thing that's going on!

 :D

I'd like to know if the virus is picking people on purpose or randomly.

Me too!

Reply by Spiraltwist on April 4, 2008 at 5:31am

like they coulda' been there before John/Doktor Sleepless, but like a puzzle that he had to figure out how to solve to gain access to them?

Eaxctly. I'm on very little sleep right now, but the more I look at the characters, the more they seem like programs. Best example of one slipping from the program would be Preston Stoker, The clean up crew, Dr. Albert Cannon.

Or maybe I'm just tired?

Reply by Mike Hills on April 4, 2008 at 6:01am

i love Preston Stoker!

M1k3y's a fan of anyone that speaks in the third-person!

Reply by Spiraltwist on April 6, 2008 at 2:35am

You would love Stoker. Why am I not surprised? :P

Reply by 444 on April 4, 2008 at 7:54am

On sleeplessness are you?

 ; )

If I may inquire further, what do you mean by "programs"? Like they are themselves machines or perhaps this is a simulated world kinda' thing or...?

Reply by Spiraltwist on April 6, 2008 at 2:33am

If I may inquire further, what do you mean by "programs"? Like they are themselves machines or perhaps this is a simulated world kinda' thing or...?

I'm not sure on the simulated world idea. It's like they are full filling their duties/or roles in society. Since the Doktor has been gone, everything has stagnated (according to Tag & Dem). Some things appear to be falling apart. Reality is what they perceive, and the construct angels appear to be there to jolt them out of it. Hmmm....how do we really define a "program"?

Hell, I'm not even making sense to myself at this point.

Reply by 444 on April 6, 2008 at 9:39am

Heh, well you must be making some sorta' sense, to me at least, because your post has got me chasing down a few different trains of thought!

But I'm a little too tired tonight to write that post (coming down with a cold, it seems). Let me take a better look at the stations, and I'll get back to this later.

Reply by Mark Crabtree on April 3, 2008 at 6:18pm

This is pretty wild speculation, and I'm sure you'll forgive me if we know something that contradicts it.

What if the H plates are the Doktor.

What if he never left, but uploaded his mind across the city. That ought to be big enough.

The H-plates broadcast that to the special receivers in his replica-robots (being the Doktor and The Man In Room 23). The breakdowns are the on board programming conflicting with the broadcast commands and "Holy Shitballs" is Nurse Igor seeing an underground cavern full of backup Johns.

I'd like to know if the virus is picking people on purpose or randomly.

Good question. My guess is that there are too few people affected for it to be completely random, there's probably something that connects them. Although, for some reason i don't think those individuals were singled out, just targeted for some feature/characteristic/brand of implant.

Reply by Spiraltwist on April 4, 2008 at 5:34am

Ohh this a another good one too. Any speculation is awesome in my book.

The only connection to Celia I can think of is she'd friends with Sing, and she doesn't like the Doktor. Who better to hurt than those who don't like you?

Reply by 444 on April 4, 2008 at 8:28am

What if the H plates are the Doktor.

Heh, that's pretty cool.

It's certainly clear that their is (likely continual?) interface between the Doktor and the H-Plates. I mean, his recent statements seem to say as much.

I dunno' about replicants as such though. I mean, if the technologies we've been introduced to so far (Clatter, Shriekyware, for example) are a relative indicator, then fleshbot-replicants seems a little too much a stretch. Unless, of course, there is a whole other level of technology that we aren't yet aware of--like others are also some kind of machines or something? I mean, the Doktor is likely to have some pretty neat technologies (like the red button pad!) relative to the general populace, but blood donating robots? I dunno'...

I do like the idea of the Doktor resonating throughout Heavenside though--like he was some manifestation of the interference patterns amongst the broadcasts of the H-Plates...but that'd be pretty freakin' high-tech too!

Reply by Mark Crabtree on April 5, 2008 at 12:59pm

While it would be more advanced than anything we've seen that might be for a good reason.

Besides, it doesn't necessarily have to be a full on flesh covered replicant, there are one or two (slightly) simpler ways. You only actually need a humanoid robot with a reservoir of blood in one finger (we've got walking robots, near-Turing conversation programmes, face simulations etc. not too impossible to put them all together).

Reply by 444 on April 6, 2008 at 9:26am

Hmm, I don't quite understand the connection between the Ellis page you link to and what you've been saying--could you say a little more please?

That's a good point about only needing "a reservoir of blood in one finger." I suppose these possible robots need not be as complex as I imagine them.

My own gut tells me it's something else though...

 ; )

Reply by Mark Crabtree on April 6, 2008 at 11:19am

Just that if someone has stolen the future it may be that there is a stash of extra advanced tech being kept from the general public.

But at this stage, I'm probably trying too hard to justify my fanciful speculation. We'll find out by the end of the week!

Reply by 444 on April 7, 2008 at 8:09am

Heh--at least yer honest!

 : )

Just that if someone has stolen the future it may be that there is a stash of extra advanced tech being kept from the general public.

Ah, that's kinda' what I had thought--takes the "who stole the future" thing pretty literally. I don't quite get that feel from Ellis' post. More like, here we are in an age of amazing technological advancement, and yet, it still seems like we are living in some sort of 'dark age.' Where's the utopia our technologies were supposed to create for us?

Personally, I blame human nature, as expressed through dominant western world paradigms, for the theft of the future, heh.

Reply by Lord Shaper on April 6, 2008 at 7:29am

I'm thinking that the Angel Constructs that are being seen because of the St. Teresa's Eyes virus is passing over Clatter as it keeps being mentioned that it hasn't been changed and can be used to connect anything.

I don't know if there is a randomness to who is getting it or not... My main thought about that is they are targeted to put the scare into 'anyone can get it' remember that in the first issue he said if he was to do what he wants to do as without being the animated character that then everyone would be able to see what he was doing and stop him.

I think alot of it is to deflect any other sort of suspision of what he's realling doing.

Reply by Mike Hills on April 6, 2008 at 9:51am

which begs the question: what sort of virus St Terera's Eyes? it is a computer virus? or both?

Reply by 444 on April 6, 2008 at 10:12am

Exactly. Because the Angel Construct seems like it might physically exist (issue 5, pg. 6, middle panel). But, like you point at, there could be a virtual component and a real component--like maybe (some sort of) proximity to the angel spreads the virus over the Clatter user's gear, for example.

Reply by Lord Shaper on April 6, 2008 at 11:17am

which begs the question: what sort of virus St Terera's Eyes? it is a computer virus? or both?

Well since we don't know the time period of this could it be a virus that can spread from say software to hardware to wetware? since people are grinding themselves into oblivion and since the brain works on electrical inpulses what's to say that a virus couldn't spread over both?

Reply by Stephanie Wilson on April 7, 2008 at 4:13am

At this point, a combination of both would cover all possibilities. How does a body mount a defense against a virus? Does clatter have a way to defend the user?

Reply by 444 on April 6, 2008 at 10:02am

Hmm, it's certainty possible that the virus is spread over Clatter.

So are you saying that you think the Angel Construct(s) is seen as an image on the user's lens and is not actually a physical thing?

Reply by Lord Shaper on April 6, 2008 at 11:08am

That's what I'm thinking and as it seems that everyone that is in Heavenside has clatter at some point as the doktor say's "your not born with it", apart from the street guys from issue 1 that were invited to stay at the mansion as they didn't seem to have any tech on them, I assumed that it was standard as mobile phones are today.

Reply by Mark Crabtree on April 6, 2008 at 11:30am

The clatter thing does make some sense, as the illusion seems really specific for a hallucination of some sort and clatter hacking is something the Doktor would be capable of. But why wouldn't the victims just remove the lenses? And why is the angel seen independently in a few panels?

Reply by Lord Shaper on April 6, 2008 at 11:36am

But why wouldn't the victims just remove the lenses?

But if you lived your life with them in as we see Sing even sleeps with them in how would you guess to remove them to see if it's real? To me it would be as if it was there even if it wasn't because I wouldn't have the through of removing the lens because I haven't needed to before

And why is the angel seen independently in a few panels?

Who's eyes are we seeing it through... are we to assume we have a lens in place as well?

Reply by Mark Crabtree on April 6, 2008 at 11:46am

how would you guess to remove them to see if it's real

Perhaps, but I'm hoping it would occur to the doctors examining her.

are we to assume we have a lens in place as well

That makes me smile.

Reply by Lord Shaper on April 6, 2008 at 11:57am

Perhaps, but I'm hoping it would occur to the doctors examining her.

But they have had them all their lives as well.. Also is it an implant or just a contact lens? it could be hard wired at some point because it has to get power from somewhere. But by the time that the people got to the doctors wouldn't they be writing it up to hysteria at the least?

That makes me smile.

I try to please!

Reply by 444 on April 7, 2008 at 8:35am

But if you lived your life with them in...

But I don't think people have lived their whole life with them in.

Sleepless claims he created Clatter (Issue 2 pg.16, lower left panel), and he also talks about how "[i]t's not so long ago that a letter or a photo took months to cross the world" after saying that half of his listeners know where their friends are through their use of Clatter (Issue 1 pg. 20, lower right panel).

So, it would seem that maybe not everyone in Heavenside has lenses and it's likely those who do haven't had them their whole lives.

Reply by Mike Hills on April 6, 2008 at 1:57pm

clatter hacking is something the Doktor would be capable of

especially given he wrote it.

thus by "opening the door for it" he just removed some previous bugfix/firewall/spyfilter that had been holding it at bay

Reply by Spiraltwist on April 8, 2008 at 12:47pm

Another thought to "opening the door for it".

What if it had been there all along? It's not that the Doktor needed to open the door, in as much as he needed to remove a layer of their reality for them to see what's in front of them.

Reply by Lord Shaper on April 8, 2008 at 12:54pm

Ok let me take this in a different direction... while planing for the next Welcome to Heavenside I've came up with another theory about what the virus is/could be.

Speaking of Tulpa's and Thought Forms they are defined by wikipedia as this:

That which takes the image of the thinker.

That which takes the image of some material object.

That which takes a form entirely its own, expressing its inherent qualities in the matter which ::::it draws round it.

So there are 3 different types. Now we know that there as been 3 or 4 John Rienhardts out there at some point but what if going on the 3rd point that St Teresa's Tears is actually another version of John which is some how inforcing his mind on those that he is 'infecting'?

Am I going too far out on a limb?

Reply by Spiraltwist on April 7, 2008 at 4:12am

So are you saying that you think the Angel Construct(s) is seen as an image on the user's lens and is not actually a physical thing?

Hmmm....how do you fool the senses? Everyone is so plugged in through clatter, it reasons to stand that the Angel Contructs might be physically real, but they might not be. Define "real". Maybe a person needs to have both Clatter and an RFID tag (remember, the only one we know for sure who doesn't have a tag is Sing) for the virus to work?

The Angel Contructs show a shadow like they were physically there. But again, we are looking though Celia's eyes? Her version of reality may not be the correct one. But they are real enough for her.

Reply by Lord Shaper on April 7, 2008 at 5:38am

Hmmm....how do you fool the senses?

But we have seen that the constructs are being viewed, that we can see, throught a window or at a distance to the POV we're shown So the only sence that we see being used is sight. Also could somehow the way there are gears or whatever you want to call it inside the Angel , could be moving in a way to have the body do a reaction like how there are ways to get reactions out of people now with say a shakey cam film like cloverfield or Blair Witch.

The Angel Contructs show a shadow like they were physically there. But again, we are looking though Celia's eyes? Her version of reality may not be the correct one. But they are real enough for her.

If you look at how video games are today they are getting to be more real than real life so the first thing to ask is what is reality... is my reality different to your one? The shadows can be programmed almost perfect now and since this I'm assuming is in the future then does that mean they could be perfect?

And I am starting to feel that the idea behind Doktor Sleepless is that not even reality is safe. If that's the case are there parallels to Grant Morrison's Invisibles?

Reply by 444 on April 7, 2008 at 8:55am

Maybe a person needs to have both Clatter and an RFID tag (remember, the only one we know for sure who doesn't have a tag is Sing) for the virus to work?

If there is a virtual component to the virus, then this is what I was thinking too--it's why I mentioned "proximity" to the Angel Construct.

As to defining 'real', well, heh, you'll note that the distinction I made was between a (real) image and a (real) physical thing.

 ;)

Reply by Ian 'Cat' Vincent on April 10, 2008 at 9:15pm

I guess we know now...

(I was privately hoping the Secret of the H Plates would involve many live brains in jars, pTowered by Tesla coils. Maybe later...)

Nice to see that the blood was simply switched by old-school sleight-of-hand by the Nurse. Like Gibson said, when they expect high-tech it's best to go low-tech.

And the Angle's aren't part of the Doktor's plan - or at least not a part under his control.

The thick, as they say, plottens.

Reply by 444 on April 10, 2008 at 10:21pm

And the Angle's aren't part of the Doktor's plan - or at least not a part under his control.

Yeah, he seemed pretty freaked out by his sighting of the Angel Construct. All the more curious as to what the heck it is and where it's come from.

Reply by Mike Hills on April 10, 2008 at 11:29pm

maybe he's just freaked out that HE might be infected too?

OR

the Angels are the work of another player, yet to be revealed that is set to challenge the Doktor?

Reply by Ian 'Cat' Vincent on April 10, 2008 at 11:33pm

Do we know for sure the Doktor actually uses Clatter in the same way as everyone else? Maybe his interface is in the goggles, because he knows what the ones on the eyeball can do... and that may be why he pulled off the goggles to look at the Angel.

Reply by Mike Hills on April 10, 2008 at 11:51pm

i dunno man, if he's got all this "important junk in his head", why would Clatter be in his goggles?

i took at as more a "wtf am i looking at here?" removes goggles.. yep still seeing Angel..

Reply by Ian 'Cat' Vincent on April 10, 2008 at 11:55pm

Fair point of course - just muttering out loud...

But it could still be that he wants to be able to remove Clatter quicker than sticking a finger in his eye - or that Clatter-over-eyeball is the sole vector for St. Theresa and he's keeping immune...

(And it could be that the 'important' junk is something else, of course. All we can rely on is Warren fucking up our expectations at some point!)

Reply by Mike Hills on April 10, 2008 at 11:59pm

re: Clatter.. if anything you'd think he'd be running it with all the source-code and such, so that he could dynamically hack into it to enable/disable stuff etc.. ie he has complete control over it prolly like noone else

All we can rely on is Warren fucking up our expectations at some point!

that is our one constant

Reply by 444 on April 12, 2008 at 8:13am

the Angels are the work of another player, yet to be revealed that is set to challenge the Doktor?

I'm leaning more to this myself--at least in so far as your other choice goes.

It seemed to me like he may have recognized the Angel Construct and maybe knows what it's about. I mean, his initial "Oh," kinda' reads like something we might say if we were to see something without recognition at first and then "oh, that's what it is," as it dawns on us what we are seeing. Of course, the Doktor seems unhappy about it with the following, "Oh no," which again seems to imply he has some idea(s) about it.

Or maybe it's a synchronicity with him having been discussing the sighting of angels (in a religious context) at times of great upheaval, and he was shocked to see one for himself? And maybe it'll give him a God complex--like he's seen the angel and knows something big is coming, and that this "something big" is all his doing; or, maybe he'll become terrified and have a religious conversion of some sort in order to appease the angry angels of God?

OK, I'm mostly kidding about that last paragraph.

But really, unless he does think it's an actual angel, I'm quite curious as to why he says, "that...that's not possible." Again, it seems to me to imply that he knows something about it--like why it shouldn't be possible, for example.

Reply by Mike Hills on April 12, 2008 at 8:24am

Again, it seems to me to imply that he knows something about it--like why it shouldn't be possible, for example.

exactly why i think we're seeing the first signs of another player emerging.. someone that messing with what he thought he was controlling..

i nominate Mars, purely for the long odds

Reply by 444 on April 12, 2008 at 8:46am

i nominate Mars, purely for the long odds

Heh. I like yer style, M1k3y!

Well, I suppose every decent (anti) hero needs an worthy adversary, eh?

Although, what Sleepless has chosen for an enemy seems quite formidable!

Reply by Mike Hills on April 12, 2008 at 8:53am

Well, I suppose every decent (anti) hero needs an worthy adversary, eh?

whilst the Doktor is a hero to most of us, Warren was quite clear early on that he was writing about "a new kind of Villain" (quote's from one of those 3 Question interviews)

Reply by 444 on April 12, 2008 at 11:23am

But, "a new kind of villain" is kinda' nebulous: can we be sure it refers to the Doktor?

I also seem to remember reading something about how DS has something to do with the power of a single individual or a an individual assuming a position of immense power or something along those lines. Maybe you know more about that (and its source)? Well, unless I made it up, lol!

Reply by Mike Hills on April 12, 2008 at 12:31pm

But, "a new kind of villain" is kinda' nebulous: can we be sure it refers to the Doktor?

oh god, now you're making me question everything

so how much of anything do we actually know for sure?

it's theories all the way down

444 Permalink Reply by 444 on April 13, 2008 at 9:39am

Eh! For some reason I can't reply to yer most recent post--there's no "reply to this" marker...

But you had said:

oh god, now you're making me question everything

To which I wanted to reply:

Mwhahaha! The plan is going perfectly!

And then I wanted to follow it with:

Oh waitaminute! Did I type that out loud? Are we live here?

But then, now having to introduce the beginning with the "no reply" thing has totally fucked with the flow of the intended post.

Heh.

But yeah, what do we know for sure? I know there's many more questions than answers at this point.

It was nice to learn what the H-Plates were about, but it sorta' also seems more "small fries" than other mysteries that remain at large.

Reply by 444 on April 15, 2008 at 10:12am

It's maaaaaaaaagic....

Reply by Mike Hills on April 16, 2008

yeah, Ning appears to have to limit on it's no. of replies

and yes, Warren seems to be hitting the MacGuffin and MisDirection buttons a lot.. loveable rogue that he is :D

of course, to put things in perspective last night i watch Lynch's Inland Empire. DOK is straight out obvious compared to that. and i now challenge Herr Ellis to work in a scene with the bunny-people.

back on track: all we know for certain is that an entity known as the Doktor has "a terrible prescription". and he's only just getting warmed up.

and that the Grinders are listening

Reply by 444 on April 16, 2008 at 8:26am

yeah, Ning appears to have to limit on it's no. of replies

Well, fer darn tootin'!

of course, to put things in perspective last night i watch Lynch's Inland Empire. DOK is straight out obvious compared to that...

Heh. I haven't seen that one yet. A good friend and fellow Lynch aficionado told me he didn't like it, but mostly because it was too far gone or abstract or something. *shrug* I'm still gonna' watch it sometime, 'natch.

And no doubt Sleepless looks pretty obvious compared to something like Lynch's work, heh! I mean, for the most part Lynch doesn't connect all the dots, and kinda' makes the viewers wonder if there is any solidity to the dots they think they've seen.

Whereas with DS we got, so far it seems to me, kinda' a sci-fi mystery novel in its initial stages. And hasn't Ellis said as much re: the novel aspect? I seem to recall reading somewhere that he had this set up in installments of eight or nine issues, like chapters--or did I totally make this up?

Reply by Ian 'Cat' Vincent on April 12, 2008 at 3:15pm

I never liked the look of Mars meself...

Reply by Ian 'Cat' Vincent on April 13, 2008 at 10:17pm

The thing I'm going crazy about is trying to find out about the real H-Plates.

Britain has loads of 'em. There's three less than five minutes walk from my house. And I can't find a bloody thing about them online.

But I bet Warren knows. Oh yes.

Anyone else?

Reply by Ian 'Cat' Vincent on April 15, 2008 at 2:24pm

Strike that - nice people on Whitechapel clued me in

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